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Forum Post: the perpetual debt model

Posted 1 week ago on June 13, 2019, 10:58 a.m. EST by agkaiser (2314) from Fredericksburg, TX
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Is perpetual debt of consumers and our government to those who've made the greatest profits and loaned us their excess a sustainable economic model?

That is a rhetorical question. A real one is why do so few of us see the deadliest flaw of the for profit system? That is: profit is maximized by minimizing costs and maximizing sales. Most consumers are both costs as employees and buyers with the money they're paid. Government services are also costs and sources of income to producers. The conservatives are terrified of paying sufficient wages or taxes and so the economy falters as the money flows to them and stops there ... until they loan it back to us and our government at interest, which exacerbates the problem. When will conservative masters or the slavish fools who follow them see the paradox? Apparently never!

In feudal time the lords and ladies organized our communities for their own benefit. We seem to have gotten into a bad habit of subservience to the few, the powerful, the greediest and most ruthless. It's time for change.

Can we, in our communities, organize ourselves to provide employment, goods and services on a non-profit basis as readily as the for profit corporations and businesses on which we now depend for our lives and livelihoods?



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[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33740) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 week ago

A real one is why do so few of us see the deadliest flaw of the for profit system?

One serious flaw I see in the practice of the for profit system "is" - that it tells itself and everyone else that the aim is to go as high as possible as fast as possible ( going high = raking in profits).

Capitalism/for profit system - used to be SANE = Steady business with steady growth which produced a steady profit. Where a one percent annual growth was not sneered at. Where employees were valued and shared in the growth on that same small scale - but it worked because inflation was equally low and the business worked at providing the best quality to gain new customers as well as retain past customers - and the business kept growing as population increased to meet that population growth. Profits weren't wild, they were steady as was the economy = steady and growing with the population.

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2314) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 week ago

10,000 years ago we had an environmentally neutral and in every way sustainable [dominant] economy of hunting and gathering that had been functioning for 200,000 years or more. in 0.1% of that time, capitalism is approaching annihilation.

[-] 0 points by grapes (5232) 1 week ago

I doubt very much that "10,000 years ago we had an environmentally neutral and in every way sustainable [dominant] economy of hunting and gathering."

Both Australia and America bear strong evidence that the newly arrived species H. sapiens had profoundly affected their environment.

Exponential growth is indeed astonishing for both creation and destruction.

I think that you may be looking at the long-ago past through rose-colored glasses. Maybe a bit like me loving the memory of my "birthplace of the wooden gods" neighborhood. I was a survivor of living in that neighborhood so it certainly biased me. The good thing about starting at the bottom is that every perturbation is an improvement, as long as "the hope still lives." Do you see the mud or do you see the stars? The choice belongs to the beholder.

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2314) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 week ago

Original Sin is the adoption of pastoral and/or agricultural economies that included the knowledge to do the evil we've done in the past 200 years. But they were still too primitive 10,000 years ago to "profoundly" affect the environment. You say shit like that because you're too contrary to accept anything anyone else says.

[-] 0 points by grapes (5232) 1 week ago

Pastoral and/or agricultural economies had started much earlier than in the past 200 years. The generally accepted dates are at least from several thousands of years ago. I agree with your Original Sin statement that the adoption of pastoral and/or agricultural economies did evil because it had opened our eyes to the possibility of exponential growth. Frankly, I think that Australia had been torched by H. sapiens, perhaps to drive out potential preys for easy hunting motivated by greed or dire circumstances. Fire was an early exponential-growth phenomenon observed and eventually "controlled" by Homos.

The thing that had in fact supported the exponential growth was the usage and enhanced methods of extraction, processing, and distribution of fossil fuels. It's as if we had discovered a huge inheritance in our name. It's a great opportunity for us to build a sustainable future for all. We must not squander it by succumbing to our greed. Human desires know no bounds but everything is ultimately finite as God had it written in the Bible (itself a product of pastoral and/or agricultural economies so it jibes with the scholarly biblical researches dating the creation of the earth, NOT the planet Earth, to six-thousand years ago when two trees were PLANTED at the center of the Garden [a sedentary idea] of Eden) that there was a natural number for everything, much earlier than the invention of the trans-natural numbers and infinities.

Planting is an idea alien to an ancient hunter. I think that men have aggrandized ourselves in heroic stories such as our hunting mammoths. There are a lot more roots to dig, berries to pick, etc. than mammoths to hunt down by the ancient hunters. Recall the food pyramid from ecology. There are many more little mammals than murderous mammoths around. I would have tried to catch a mouse, a rat, or a rabbit rather than hunt a big mammoth risking my life. Besides, most of the mammoth meat would most likely be wasted even if the hunt had succeeded.

My family like the Bible had an oral folklore, myths, and history. There was indeed at least a grain of truth to all of them. However, due to the deaths of people, I cannot corroborate on all propositions but vaguely, I could perceive the consistency in the different accounts. It's a bit like the various books of the New Testament. I really think that Jesus of Nazareth was a real person and not made up as a deliberate fiction to deceive us. However, I am of the impression that certain attributed phrases were injected deliberately as a stumbling block to deflect the faithful ones from Salvation.

I don't even worship Jesus because idol worshiping is prohibited in the Ten Commandments. Why should I worship Mary then? Doesn't that make me break a Commandment? Doesn't every person have a mother? I have never experienced a counter-example in Homos. I don't expect other people to worship my Mom. I appreciate Jesus as much as I do the transistorized radio and shortwave/mediumwave multiband vacuum-tube radio which my Dad had brought home from overseas. He's the Way. He's the Word. He had "the drycell zinc batteries and the orange beams of electrons in partial vacuum."

In some versions of the Lord's Prayer, there is the phrase, "as we have forgiven those who trespassed against us." Before the Hebrews handed Jesus over to the Romans, they had accused and objected to Jesus for uttering to a woman that her sins were forgiven. I therefore presume that only God can forgive sins but Jesus could not have committed blasphemy as much as a transistorized radio had committed blasphemy.

Then there was also the phrase, "for yours is the glory, and the kingdom, and the power forever and ever" immediately following "and deliver us from the evil one." Are we referring to "the evil one" Satan's kingdom on earth here? There's sufficient ambiguity due to what had gone before the phrase. Salvation via "good work" is suspect. If it were so, the wealthy ones who can spend more to do more "good work" should crowd Heaven because they can buy the Indulgences. Heaven must be similar to an expensive-admission ballpark stadium where the winning teams' championship game is being played. Win! Win! Win!

"Anything goes with our Corrupt News Media today. They will do, or say, whatever it takes, with not even the slightest thought of consequence! These are true cowards and without doubt, THE ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE!"

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2314) from Fredericksburg, TX 6 days ago


[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2314) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 week ago

Pastoral and/or agricultural economies had started much earlier than in the past 200 years.

No shit! Get your act together. I said 10,000 in the first place.

[-] 0 points by grapes (5232) 6 days ago

Yes. I am of the opinion that our problems with our environment had started much earlier than the Age of Industrialization which had started about 200 years ago.

10,000 might have been a bit on the high side for me but I can certainly agree with you that it was sometime between 6,000 and 11,000 years ago which is the range of my estimate.

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2314) from Fredericksburg, TX 6 days ago

Yes, we were headed in a bad direction long before we had any real power to do anything dangerous, except to our spirit. Settled city life and the rise of economic elites (priests and kings) was the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. hunter gatherers abandoned the garden to be herders and Cain the farmer killed Abel the herdsman symbolizing the 2nd transition: the one from pastoral to agricultural - and the concomitant evil of rule by elite parasites, such as we still have to this day . 10,000 is a nice round number that approximately coincides with the oldest continuously inhabited cities on Earth: Jericho, Palestine and Damascus, Syria.

[-] 0 points by grapes (5232) 6 days ago

Looking at the pictures of modern Iraq where the mesopotamian civilization was located, you can see that many areas became desert. I learnt from a world-civilization class that a number of cities sprouted up in Mesopotamia because the people there had discovered artificial irrigation and could therefore grow more crops to feed the growing city populations. However, the salt in the irrigation water stayed behind after evaporation if not flushed away regularly by freshwater or rain (which tends to be scarce where irrigation is needed) so after many centuries, there would be so much accumulated salt that plants couldn't grow anymore. Hence, desert arrived, marking the end of the agricultural economy in southern Iraq.

At the other end is the ending time of the Last glacial period about 11,700 years ago. One cannot grow much while being in a glacial period due to the low temperatures and water being locked up in its frozen forms. "Life is electric fire burning slowly in water." Higher temperatures are necessary for a fire to burn at a higher combustion rate (cf. .) and water in liquid form provides the medium for the slow combustion. The electric part comes from the anions and cations such as those from dissolved salts. Warm salty water with a mechanism to slow combustion is good for life. Life used a fatty (electrically insulating) membrane studded with protein-based-ion-channels as the mechanism for slowing and control the fire's combustion rate. Agriculture could start after warm water becomes common after 11,700 BP.

By about 5,000 years ago, there were multiple well-established river-based agricultural civilizations worldwide so the transition to agriculture had to happen before that time in these places. Shrinking the bracket of 11,700-5,000 BP (Before Present) a bit to account for glaciers to melt, the agricultural civilizations to establish themselves, and to use fewer significant digits to show some uncertainties gives 11,000-6,000 BP as a possible range for the transitions. I traced the lactose-tolerance mutation which tended to confer great survival value to an individual in a pastoral civilization. It seemed that the mutation had occurred towards the more recent end of the 11,000-6,000 range estimate. Hence, in Eastern Europe, the transition from pastoral to agricultural economy might have been 7,000-6,000 BP. When the transition actually occurred depended on the location, I picked Eastern Europe because the largest linguistic family diverged from there and there were Proto-Indo-European roots of the words today that indicated a pastoral economy.

In agriculture's spread after the Last glacial period has ended, Europe was expected to lag behind the Middle-East due to its higher latitudes so its warming came later.

Without the surplus from production, no élite class is sustainable but as Jesus said that life was more than just bread so the existence of the élites may be socially desirable for some ends.

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2314) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 week ago

It's all our community: national, state, local and neighborhood. At all levels the point is: can concentration of wealth be sustained.

What motivates people most is self preservation. What happens when the well being of the wealthiest few threatens the livelihoods of the rest? Try to make concentration of wealth at an exponentially increasing rate and the concomitant debt work. What we are doing now, regardless of the motivation, is unsustainable.

You want more? We all want more. But we all can't have it because in the end Milton Friedman lied. It is always a zero sum game. What they have, we don't!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33740) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 week ago

The wealth inequality gap continues to widen as the whole civilization continues to fall apart, as the wealthy few continue to eliminate jobs & not just by off-shoring them to sweatshop slave labor countries that have little regard for worker safety or concern for their environment (air, land,water) - but also by eliminating jobs completely as they automate more and more processes, which then puts more and more people on the unemployment line.

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2314) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 week ago

The end is near. It's time for us to fight or die!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33740) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 week ago

The end is near. It's time for us to fight or die!

Yes the End is Near if only due to Global Warming and the refusal of Gov & the wealthy few to end the use of fossil fuels and switch over to clean energy production and use in transportation, industries, as well as in just producing electricity.

& it WILL come down to actual fighting - as can be seen all over the world already as the general populations of various countries get increasingly violent as they get shoved further and further into poverty. One SHOULD note the growth of violence here in the USA and then note the growth of poverty that accompanies the growth of the wealth inequality gap here in the USA! There IS a very Visible "Cause & Effect"

[-] 2 points by agkaiser (2314) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 week ago

Absolutely! Let's appeal to those who want to know the truth and are closer to awakening than the idiot Trump and his hard core moron base.

Many stay in the the conservative camp only because of abortion and LGBT fears. Without those issues only fascists, racists, xenophobes and the rich masters (and their principal ministers like CEOs and politicians.) I'd guess 10% or less of the population, would remain.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33740) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 week ago

About appealing to The People.

I try to do that (as mentioned in my other reply) and just added this one to the on-going practice:


[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33740) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 week ago

(edit) Which is EXACTLY why I visit Conservative Office holder's tweet accounts and refute what they say (with no facts presented by them) with attached facts that viewers can access. Wake those who ARE sane and get them to vote those abusive assholes out of government! EDIT: https://twitter.com/DKAtoday/status/1138425919171911680


Which is also why I visit progressives (who claim to be progressives anyway) and forward thoughts and possible actions that could and should be taken: https://twitter.com/DKAtoday/status/1139040793568698369

Again = for those who are looking in.

[-] 0 points by grapes (5232) 1 week ago

Yes, Kaiser (I thought that you might be the AGricultural German Emperor,) Your Majesty can have the honor of pressing the Big Red Button for ending unaccountability. I'll show you where it is (Chimerica is a chimera reflected in a mirage. It's anytime now when the Taoist priest cooking the gunpowder will discover the trifecta formula of the elixir for immortality.)

When the machine stalled and became a moron, the software programmer told me that we only needed to press the red reset button. I still remember the Technotrick of Reboot. He was indeed correct, at that time in the caveman age of computing, that nothing bad would happen. He said, "Try anything. Nothing bad will happen!" Meaning involves the context.

Now we can get even closer than a few seconds (or a single vote cast by Soviet vice admiral Vasily Akhipov who had previously experienced the awful K-19 incident, against going near) to midnight on the Doomsday Clock for our lone-habitable planet. Dozens of times having been near there didn't get us all the way there. Maybe we must hold the reset button for a much longer time, press the bouncy el cheapo button many scores of times, or replace it with a {debounced} R-S flip-flop to ensure:

Pr[Reboot] = 1.

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2314) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 week ago

we are moving towards extinction from several directions simultaneously. worst case: we all die. best case: the rich live on with robots to serve them instead of we, the docile then dead.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33740) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 week ago

the rich live on with robots to serve them instead of we

& then the robots breakdown and there is no one left alive who can repair them & the wealthy finally die-off leaving the planet to whatever humble forms of life remain & the Environment slowly heals itself over the following eons....

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2314) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 week ago

leaving the planet to whatever humble forms of life remain

little will change in the end, because in that case the last humans will also be cockroaches. So .

[-] 0 points by grapes (5232) 1 week ago

There's nothing wrong with "humble" forms of life. If you actually take an intense look at cockroaches, they are fascinating creatures, absolutely the easiest pets to keep. My Mom killed a number of the exotic pets which my Big Brother and I kept. She might have had a point of keeping him focused on education and me away from directing Operation Neighborhood Microvampires using the captured micro-submarines.

I vaguely recall that a cockroach was one of the first if not the first earthly organism to reach orbital space, absolutely a space-faring pioneer. According to Wikipedia, fruitflies were the first organisms in space though not orbital space in the 1940s on a V-2 rocket fired from White Sands Missile Range, my childhood memory of what I thought that I had read about space explorations might have been faulty. Being bigger than a fruitfly, a cockroach (Periplaneta americana of course, not the smaller and harder to be hooked up to instruments P. germanica, imported by my Dad in his luggage according to my Big Brother after his research; U.S.A! U.S.A! U.S.A!) in orbital space could have provided the prolonged monitoring of biological signals in the orbital flight environment. Perhaps the cockroach experiment was scrapped in the hurried pace of rushing to land a man on the Moon and return him safely to the Earth in the 1960s.

Of course, without amassing enough organisms on a certain level of complexity of the evolutionary-complexity hierarchy, we might lose out on knowing what the higher levels of complexity would be like. Hence, preserving a high quantity of life is important.

Without clean water, I as a preschooler might have died of cholera. My Big Brother was tied up fetching water and Mom boiling water every morning. Without electricity, we couldn't keep food around without spoiling for long so Mom was tied up shopping for fresh food once or twice a day and preparing meals every day. She worked less due to her lack of time from doing the necessary chores. Without her working more though once we had gained refrigeration (one can argue that our so-called new [actually very old! but surprisingly collegiate for me] culture of eating leftovers refrigerated artificially or naturally was an empowering austerity measure,) we couldn't have accumulated the savings to splurge on the transcontinental/transoceanic/transglobal flights to immigrate to New York City.

There are gates that must be opened with a proper key acquired enroute, most often assiduously but at times unconsciously or inadvertently. "Fate" favors the well-prepared ready ones. One can manufacture "Fate" to a certain extent. One also has to cast away now-obsolete traditions and customs which hinder acceleration towards one's manufactured "Fate." It's a bit like a difficult climb against gravity. One probably has to cast away much old "mass" to obey Newton's Second Law in order to maximize acceleration. Space rockets do it by shedding their used-up boosters; insects do it by shedding their exoskeletons; I did it by weaning myself from the cooled boiled water in the Johnny Walker whisky bottle, though not entirely of my own accord when I "gravity-bombed" our white porcelain kitchen sink upon the Periplaneta americana crawling fast up the whisky bottle I was holding and flying away when I dropped it atop the sink. We threw away our kitchen sink before taking our transcontinental/transoceanic/transglobal flights.

Life has been quite an exhilarating and interesting voyage for me. I heard of the story of people flying in airplanes. I saw my Dad's postcard pictures of the big golden sculpture of Prometheus and the statue of Lady Liberty in New York. They are all true!

I didn't fall for having many different flavors of ice-cream for free although I appreciated Dad's effort to provide me with the opportunity to earn some money before I headed for college. I liked ice-cream but not toothache. I also savored eating gourmet chicken butts but definitely not the mere thought of them nauseating me for more than a decade. I wonder whether overloading on saturated fat might have caused my childhood strands of white hair. Connections are important but choosing well is more. Ten kinds of ice-cream (plain vanilla, plain chocolate, coffee-flavored, pink with strawberries, green mint-flavored with pistachio nuts, chocolate chips in vanilla, chocolate fudge in vanilla, M&Ms in vanilla, peanut butter in vanilla, and hazelnuts in vanilla) in unrestricted quantities were both tasty and enticing ( Dad loved the green mint-flavored with pistachio nuts ice-cream the most; I in my childhood generally disliked eating any green things because I associated them with vegetables which tasted a bit bitter; Dad had good taste { I admired this trait of his! He knew the durable classics which could make a person look Great; I once wore a decades-old outfit which I had inherited from him and women were attracted to me; of course, he chided me once before for being a "lazy beggar" with my hair uncombed and my shoes not shiny enough to see reflections! -- yeah, it's the wages of having a freebie fashion consultant; he helped me pick out and buy a brand-new suit so that I could be properly dressed for his and Mom's U.S. citizenship swearing-in ceremony and having pictures taken afterwards } for the pistachio mint-flavored ice-cream because being older and having overcome my aversion of any green-colored food, I concur these days with his preference; pistachio nuts are green but I like their flavor ) but in order to have time for other endeavors, restraining my childish desires was the Tao of moderation.

Mom though, being an education zealot, operated a matriarchal dictatorship upon our kiddie petkeeping pastimes which she took as our waste of time. She killed our pets by stomping upon my Big Brother's black "coffin" crickets and his golden-green wolf spiders to focus him on his studies and education, and dumping the micro-submarines which I had captured from an elderly neighbor's cistern for my Operation Neighborhood Microvampires in which a "good-morning, continental breakfast" Ohio-class submarine may spit おはよ/Aloha!

Our elderly neighbor was living alone by herself next to the bamboo forest which had a yellow patch of the most beautiful chrysanthemums that I had ever seen, shone by the morning sunbeams filtering through the bamboo-grass stalks from across the singing stream which flowed next to the well and the well's adjacent concrete-paved area { previously used for filling vessels with the bucket-fetched-up well water but largely unused due to the switching over to municipal water [as cholera had struck nearby] except for non-potable usages such as keeping watermelons cool, washing clothes and cleaning our front yard; we actually used another well even closer to our home for these non-potable usages rather than this secondary well close to the stream because water is heavy to carry and easy to spill } where I kept my two pet chickens (you might have already learnt how my hand-raised "Yellow" chicken and "Sesame" chicken had ended up after their fattening up inside of a large overturned weaved-vine basket; we are predators by Mom's design, even indirectly [through gifting] and unintentionally [through feasting.]) The beautiful combination is why autumn is my favorite season. It has the best weather for beautiful yellow mums, contrasting colored blue sky, ringing stream of mountain water, and crisp cool fresh air in the forest. I like my "birthplace of the wooden gods" neighborhood far better than the vast Siberia with its many trees, bears, (only the pitbull with his Transgender-lipstick on likes the boar hunt in the muck,) guns, and perhaps even a Siberian Tiger.

Our elderly neighbor was glad that we had "annexed" her cistern as a part of our Monroe Doctrine ( Mom decreed that no more micro-submarines would be allowed there again in new clean potable water and tasked my Big Brother to enforce it with his water buckets, yoke, and labor; my fantasy of becoming the Secretary of the Navy and Space Force of Afghanistan is probably residual from the Mom-killed dream of activating my micro-submarines' おはよ/alohas for my aborted Operation Neighborhood Microvampires.) Although my "Grandma" might not know, she was truly a blessing to me in many ways. After she had died, I figured out death and tried my very silly kiddie bet that I would have died before I had to hand in my homework to school. I've never won the bet, what a loser I was back then. Been there. Never died!

[-] 0 points by grapes (5232) 1 week ago

Worst case: everyone dies. Best case: everyone dies. The Cuban writer and revolutionary José Marti lived in exile in New York City for twelve years. It has to be new lives to replace. That's the only difference possible.

Red China had "One country. Two systems." It said that we of the U.S., a foreign country, had "no right to intervene" but apparently Nancy Pelosi had "some left to innervene." Our patriarchal but de facto matriarchal family had "One head [missing overseas]. [But still] Two testicles." We went together to the wedding banquet alright, with "family values." I got urgent with the freshly squeezed orange jew's outburst: "When you've got to go, you've got to go..."

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2314) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 week ago
[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33740) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 week ago
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